The WrestlingSmarks History Club

[Barry Poppins]

I'm at the part of the Jesus show where he's trying to explain to his disciples how the trinity works and they are just not getting it and I'm dying bc that's exactly how it's always worked, no one has ever got it

It's either all equal, or the Father is more important than the others, or the Son is more important than the others, or the Spirit is more important than the others.

Is there even a denomination where people are like, "You know what, the whole trinity is entirely unimportant."

 

[Chris]

It's either all equal, or the Father is more important than the others, or the Son is more important than the others, or the Spirit is more important than the others.

Is there even a denomination where people are like, "You know what, the whole trinity is entirely unimportant."

I believe we call them heretics

But tbh as a kid it never really confused me. I guess I just always saw it as planes of conciousness so father, son, holy Spirit were the same but from a different POV. And I wasn't even religious or anything but I remember being confused why it confused people lmao

 

[Barry Poppins]

As it happens, yes there is.

Nontrinitarianism

 

[Chris]

The holy Spirit was obviously just like your inner conscious, that's the easiest one to me. But everyone seemed to struggle with God and Jesus being one and idk it's all just abstract philosophy to me anyway, not hard to reconcile

 

[Barry Poppins]

I believe we call them heretics

But tbh as a kid it never really confused me. I guess I just always saw it as planes of conciousness so father, son, holy Spirit were the same but from a different POV. And I wasn't even religious or anything but I remember being confused why it confused people lmao

I mean yeah. My understanding from my Lutheran/Catholic (Mother is Lutheran, Father is Catholic) is that all three are the same God, but that the Father is the ruler of Heaven, the Son is the ruler of the Earth, and the Spirit is the ruler of all in-between.

 

[Chris]

As it happens, yes there is.

Nontrinitarianism

A lot of early Christian wars in the 1st millennium were just based on trinity vs no trinity weren't they? It's actually quite fascinating what we have of the highly intelligent analysis of Christian theology despite it not actually mattering lol they got so scientific about it and that's how they came up with the trinity, it's like their newtonium laws

 

[Chris]

I mean yeah. My understanding from my Lutheran/Catholic (Mother is Lutheran, Father is Catholic) is that all three are the same God, but that the Father is the ruler of Heaven, the Son is the ruler of the Earth, and the Spirit is the ruler of all in-between.

God gave himself a mortal life with all its pitfalls, didn't seem implausible to me but that kind of hinges on seeing Jesus as imperfect which the Bible most certainly suggests you should, but modern Christians hate that

 

[Barry Poppins]

God gave himself a mortal life with all its pitfalls, didn't seem implausible to me but that kind of hinges on seeing Jesus as imperfect which the Bible most certainly suggests you should, but modern Christians hate that

Evangelical Christians don't even wanna believe that Jesus had sex, which he almost certainly did. I mean the dude hung out with prostitutes most of his life.

 

[Barry Poppins]

In fact it's extremely likely that he wasn't "legally" married to Mary Magdalene, but they were common-law spouses.

 

[Chris]

Evangelical Christians don't even wanna believe that Jesus had sex, which he almost certainly did. I mean the dude hung out with prostitutes most of his life.

Idk if I believe that tbh well I guess I do believe he probably did when he was a young lad but I think when he had whatever revelation that made him think he was God he probs stopped and was just still accepting of them as people. I think he would have mostly tried to be pure from then

 

[Chris]

In fact it's extremely likely that he wasn't "legally" married to Mary Magdalene, but they were common-law spouses.

I think they had a non sexual relationship but very much romantic or possible just extremely friendly and he viewed her as a close confidant and the non-friendly sources just assume that has to be romantic, obviously gonna be very biased towards the situation

 

[Barry Poppins]

I think they had a non sexual relationship but very much romantic or possible just extremely friendly and he viewed her as a close confidant and the non-friendly sources just assume that has to be romantic, obviously gonna be very biased towards the situation

Yeah Jesus probably turned definitely celibate after his trials in the desert, but beforehand, who's to say. Mary and he were very close tho in the Bible and it just irks me that people totally deny the idea that Jesus could feel a romantic or non-platonic love for others.

 

[Chris]

Yeah as propagandic as this Jesus show is that inspired this convo, I really enjoy how much of the human Jesus they show, he's very flawed. I think the annoying director is just too much of a nerd to ignore the fairly accurate Bible history he's learned

 

[Barry Poppins]

A lot of early Christian wars in the 1st millennium were just based on trinity vs no trinity weren't they? It's actually quite fascinating what we have of the highly intelligent analysis of Christian theology despite it not actually mattering lol they got so scientific about it and that's how they came up with the trinity, it's like their newtonium laws

Circling back to this btw, yeah the history of the early church was crazy. Pre-Nicaea, the early leaders were debating about circumcision and old Jewish traditions which later would split the church between the "Orthodox" church of mainline Christianity, and later the Donatists.

The trinity debate was really the Arians, who believed the Son was lesser than the Father and Spirit because, in their mind, the Father begat the Son.

Probably the most destructive early Church schism tho was the infamous Nestorian debates regarding the nature of Jesus himself, whether he was half-Divine half-human, fully divine, fully human, or both divine and human at the same time. Which led to the Assyrian Church.

 

[Chris]

Circling back to this btw, yeah the history of the early church was crazy. Pre-Nicaea, the early leaders were debating about circumcision and old Jewish traditions which later would split the church between the "Orthodox" church of mainline Christianity, and later the Donatists.

The trinity debate was really the Arians, who believed the Son was lesser than the Father and Spirit because, in their mind, the Father begat the Son.

Probably the most destructive early Church schism tho was the infamous Nestorian debates regarding the nature of Jesus himself, whether he was half-Divine half-human, fully divine, fully human, or both divine and human at the same time. Which led to the Assyrian Church.

Yeah I haven't delved into them much but the Arian and Nestorian stuff has just been mentioned so much as an aside during other history stuff I've gotten into