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Chris

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I think the biggest variable would be Serbia not being as prominent, that could have really changed how Russia reacted which in turn would have made the Germans probably focus on France better and not piss off Britain, but you can only go so far in the what ifs bc it was such a perfect storm of events
 
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Chris

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I should have clarified I meant 20th Century, not the entire history, cuz Caesar or other figures were pretty fuckin important.
Lincoln's assassination you can argue is why we're still left with a lot of the problems we are today bc of the reconstruction disaster
 
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Barry Poppins

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I think the biggest variable would be Serbia not being as prominent, that could have really changed how Russia reacted which in turn would have made the Germans probably focus on France better and not piss off Britain, but you can only go so far in the what ifs bc it was such a perfect storm of events
Really was just every European leader was a total dipshit. Nicholas was an idiot, Wilhelm was a neurotic mess, Franz Joseph was an old cranky fuck, and everyone else was along for the ride.
 
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Sky

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The Franz Ferdinand one is hard to quantify really bc you can reasonably assume within 5 years, something else would have set off a very similar chain of events, but at the same time Ferdinand's killing is what actually did it, and if even one power was swayed otherwise by some different event that started the conflict, the outcomes could have been so drastically different
The assassination was carried out by the Young Bosnia cell, which of course tied itself to the Black Hand. A Serbian Army organisation without legitimate grassroots behind it, the Black Hand (let's not forget its real name, Unification or Death) had the purpose to further the goal of creating a Serb-dominated ethnostate out of the Austro-Hungarian-controlled Balkans. And if you know anything about Serb ethnostates, that absolutely means genociding the native peoples of that region.

The motive for the assassination was to prevent Ferdinand from eventually enacting his planned policies of granting autonomy to the various Balkan Slavic peoples inside the Empire, because this would threaten their idea of a Serb-controlled Balkans. Gavrilo Princip himself even admitted this. If Ferdinand lives to see power, you get a significantly defused "Balkan powder keg", which doesn't mean no war, but it possibly means the First World War as we know it, with this specific set of alliances, never happens.

(I've always been a believer that the UK/US/France group fought the wrong enemy in WW1, as the situation as it happened and chain of alliances that resulted tied us not only to Serbia, but to the Russian Empire, another pan-Slavist genocide state whose support of Serbia started the chain of wars and without whose strength and territorial extent the world would be a far better place)
 

Chris

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Yeah that's basically my point with better analysis lol if something else starts a first world war even if it's within the same year, the level of shift in the alliances would make a vastly different outcome we can't even really fathom
 
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Chris

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Just a fun history lesson about one of the few people who was so intimidating that even Joseph Stalin feared them.

Josip Broz Tito became the Communist Dictator of Yugoslavia in the late 40s, and almost immediately he and Stalin butted heads because of differing ideologies on how Communism should work. Tito was arguably the most hyper-competent Dictator of all time in that his whole country benefited from his charge and was not entirely a shitty place to live.

Stalin tried to have Tito assassinated multiple times, and all of them failed. It got to the point where Tito sent Stalin a personal letter to the effect of "Stop sending people to kill me. We've captured five already, it's getting tiresome. If I were to send an agent to Moscow, I promise you I will not need to send another."

Stalin never sent another assassin and also had that letter in his personal office until he died in 1953. Tito lived until 1980 as Dictator of Yugoslavia.
 

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@Chris How much have you studied or read about the whole opposition groups within the Soviet Communist Party in the 20s and 30s?

I ask because I kinda wonder how things could have turned out for the USSR had they gone with Bukharinism and Market Socialism rather than Stalinism.
 

Chris

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@Chris How much have you studied or read about the whole opposition groups within the Soviet Communist Party in the 20s and 30s?

I ask because I kinda wonder how things could have turned out for the USSR had they gone with Bukharinism and Market Socialism rather than Stalinism.

Very little now that you mention it, feels like everyone's Russian history stops after Lenin dies and doesn't pick back up until Hitler becomes relavent to them
 

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Yeah, I'm just thinking because for as effective as Stalin's government was (for better or worse), I kind of think that if the USSR was a Market Socialist state instead of Stalinist, the USA isn't so hot towards them and the Cold War doesn't really happen, because the USSR isn't aggressively trying to break up capitalist states, but install markets owned by cooperatives.
 
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Barry Poppins

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Poland probably also doesn't get invaded by the USSR, allowing them to focus on one front and not get ass-whipped so fast.
 

Chris

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I'm at the part of the Jesus show where he's trying to explain to his disciples how the trinity works and they are just not getting it and I'm dying bc that's exactly how it's always worked, no one has ever got it
 

Chris

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"The holy Spirit? Another person? We want to follow you, Jesus"

Jesus just rolls his eyes bc he's been trying to explain they're all one for hours now. This is how the priests felt in the middle ages
 
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