Monkey Shines 19/06/09 - Misawa and my love for wrestling.

[Kaedon]

Botching a power bomb, piledriver, suplex, pedigree or countless other moves that are in regular use could easily result in paralysis or death. Now I'm not saying that they should ban these moves, they're entertainers they have their timing worked out. Yes, accidents happen but we're not talking about accidents here. A wrestler who has suffered a moderate to severe concussion can have their motor skills greatly diminished rendering them incapable of performing these moves to the necessary standards.

Just because a wrestler MAY or MAY NOT have something that "could" not does, COULD render their judgment impaired, doesnt mean its up to anyone else BUT THOSE INVOLVED to deal with it.

And don't talk to me about odds either. You don't know the actual odds and neither do I. Stick to the facts.

And the facts are, you dont know how impaired a concussion will make any specific wrestler, therefore making this argument pointless.

You can chant this slogan all you like but it doesn't make it any more relevant to the situation. You're not telling anyone how to run their lives you're asking Vince McMahon and every other promoter to live up to employment standards granted anywhere else in North America. It's an archaic institution that needs revision as it no longer functions in today's society.



Don't steal, don't murder, don't assault, don't damage property that isn't your own...

Cases where someone has consented to being killed have been held up in court, so if you murder someone with their consent, whats the problem? What if someone tells you to fuck up their property for some asinine reason? Or what if, oh I dunno, Johnny Knoxville tells a guy "yeah go ahead and shoot a paintball at my testicles. Is that not assault? Hell isnt MMA assault in a legalized way? So if there are CONSENTING PARTIES, the point is moot.

Seems reasonable to me. Nobody want an exhausted doctor operating on them.

The fact of the matter is, THEY DO IT. "Sorry ma'am, I know Im the only person to save your sons life at this moment, but Ive been up for too long and I need to take a nap" give me a fucking break.

Again, that's an accident. A rare occurance. Pro wrestlers are forced to work night after night with concussions. True story.

More people have been killed or majorly injured in car races than those who have been killed or majorly injured in wrestling.

fascism 

–noun

1.(sometimes initial capital letter

) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

2.(sometimes initial capital letter

) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.

3.(initial capital letter

) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.



Nowhere in there do I see that requiring businesses to have safe working policies is fascism.

Let me re-read...

Nope, still nothing.

You, one person, Monkeystyle deciding what is and is NOT safe, is fascism.

Not relevant nor is it on point in any way, shape or form.

Actually it is. I mean those people who work at those clubs are at risk, just like wrestlers are in the ring when one guy has a concussion. In fact, those bouncers/tarbenders are at a GREATER risk. So you only want safe working standards for pro wrestling? Why dont you think its wrong for people to get loaded to the point where they lose control and beat someones ass? That poor person who gets beat up should be protected. The government should STEP IN and never allow you to be around a person after theyve had X amount to drink. And that person who GOT that wasted, well it wasnt HIS fault, it was because no one stopped him from doing what he did. Either you have personal responsibility, or you dont. Its that simple. You dont go whining to the fucking government everytime you get a hangnail. The government is there to protect us from things we cant defend ourselves from, not from a person or two people who make bad choices.

 

[monkeystyle]

All I have left to say to either of you is read this. An account of an actual wrestler who's career was ended by a simple concussion and his opinions on the matter.

And this isn't my opinion K-man and TDK it's an actual wrestler's and I'm damn certain he's not the only one.

Sure. The night of my last concussion I was working a tag team match with my partner Rodney Mac and my manager, Teddy Long against the Dudley boys. And it was a random thing where I just was going across the ring and took a boot to the chin that I thought was going to be a little further away than it was.
And it ended up basically cleaning my clock, giving me a concussion. By the time I hit the ground I actually forgot who was supposed to win the match and what we were supposed to do.
So the guys were able to kind of talk me through the end and then I went to the locker room and just lay - er not the locker room, the hallway and just laid on the floor for an hour holding my head. And I just never recovered.
I actually kept wrestling for a few weeks because I thought that that's what I was supposed to do. And it progressively got worse to the point where I couldn't even hold a conversation.

I went from doctor to doctor and couldn't get answers to why I wasn't recovering from my last concussion. So I'd been a medical consultant prior to getting into wrestling.
So I basically started going to the Harvard Library and reading everything ever published about concussions. And what I found out - what I found out is that no one had been telling any athletes that there's a lot of evidence to indicate there's long term problems that come from concussions and also that if you rest the ones you get you'll be a lot better off.
Now you know, I even found out I didn't know what a concussion was. You know, I called them dings and bell ringers when I'd black out in the ring or I'd see, you know, the sky actually go orange on me, the ceiling. And I just always thought those were normal things.
So I wrote the book Head Games to basically take that information and give it to athletes. Because it was out there in the medical literature but no one was telling the athletes how they needed to protect their brains so they wouldn't end up in a bad place.

There's quite a bit more so I'll include the link for reference's sake. http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/fighttothedeath/nowinski.html

 

[monkeystyle]

Also NeurologyNow http://www.neurologynow.com/pt/re/n...!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1?&fullimage=true has a great article on repeated concussions that athletes suffer and their effects.

If neither of you can understand that they are forced to work with these injuries there's nothing I can do for you. No sane person would ever do such a thing. Ever.

 

[monkeystyle]

I guess I'll keep going. I just found this wonderful article on Misawa's death you can read the whole thing here http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/2492824/Misawa-wanted-to-quit.html but there's one part that I'd like to highlight.

Another story emerging from the aftermath of Misawa's death is that Hiroshi Hase, himself a former champion wrestler in both the US and Japan, is pushing for legislation to be implemented to prevent a repeat of this accident ever happening again.

Hase has been involved in politics in Japan since 1995 and is currently a minister in Japan's Parliament.

He has proposed setting up a commission to oversee all sports in Japan, from football and baseball to sumo, MMA and professional wrestling.

One rule of this commission would be that a doctor must be present at all events.

Jeez another wrestler who says something needs to be done.

Am I getting through to you people yet?

 

[Luke Flywalker]

Isn't Vince pissed at Undertaker for trying to come back too early?

And isn't Shawn Michaels out until November?

And isn't Punk HIDING his injuries?

And isn't Kurt Angle REFUSING to have the same surgery on the same injury that Misawa had prior to his death?

And is John Cena not ignoring doctor's requests and returning months and months ahead of schedule?



Man, I remember Eddie said in one of his last interviews that he was told to take time off again and again, because he could barely walk, but that as soon as that curtain opened and he heard the fans, all that pain went away, and he went out to perform because it was his own love.

These guys do this shit on their own, they're not forced into anything. And taking it upon ourselves to limit their schedules when they'd probably rather be there doing the shit, won't help. It's like with my father. The guy loves to paint houses. He'll work 14-hour days, because he's happy painting. But if you tell him to take a break, it completely ruins his psyche and his happiness. People who love doing what they do, don't want to be restricted, and I'm sure many of these guys don't want to be restricted.

 

[Kaedon]

Do you think if you keep saying it enough times it becomes true? No one is FORCING them to do anything. No where in any of that did it say anything CLOSE to "Vince told me to wrestle injured or I was fired. Nowhere does it say or imply that "I had to wrestle or I knew I was fired". And even if....IF the latter is true, if they WERE to be fired, they can make the choice to lose. They dont have a right to work anywhere, and if someone was going to "make you" wrestle hurt, or play hurt, why WOULD you do it unless you loved to do it? "Well I'll lose my spot". If youre dumb enough to think that and ACT upon that bullshit FAULTY logic, you deserve what happens to you. Its a CHOICE. No one has a gun to CM Punks head and is telling him to work injured. No one told HHH to finish the match when he tore his quad both times. No one told Mick Foley to fly OFF THE TOP OF A CELL and keep going. THEY do it. This bullshit of them needing to be shepherded makes me want to puke.

 

[monkeystyle]

Isn't Vince pissed at Undertaker for trying to come back too early?

Dunno about this one.

And isn't Shawn Michaels out until November?

Pretty much only because he's been there long enough to be able to do that and not worry about his job. Ask someone like Dolph Ziggler or R-Truth if they could do that.

And isn't Punk HIDING his injuries?

Which is not smart and is likely only doing so because he's champion now and he has to. Also if Punk's injuries include a concussion the WWE should side line him anyway because what use is he if he puts himself out for good?

And isn't Kurt Angle REFUSING to have the same surgery on the same injury that Misawa had prior to his death?

And TNA shouldn't want anything to do with him. If he dies in ring the shit storm is coming down as people will realize it's not just Vince who'll let his employees kill themselves for his pocketbook.

And is John Cena not ignoring doctor's requests and returning months and months ahead of schedule?

Again, this makes no sense. You'll lose him for good doing this, protect your employees and you have a much longer return on your investment. That seems very logical to me.

Man, I remember Eddie said in one of his last interviews that he was told to take time off again and again, because he could barely walk, but that as soon as that curtain opened and he heard the fans, all that pain went away, and he went out to perform because it was his own love.

Fair enough but if he knew that it would take him away from his wife and kids and leave them in a very uncomfortable position I think he'd change his mind on that.

These guys do this shit on their own, they're not forced into anything.

Bullshit. It's do your job or someone else will. There's no job security in wrestling like there is in so many other places. It's standard now. Back in the 80's Jesse Ventura was almost fired for trying to start a wrestler's union I imagine that today it would;nt be almost fired, it would be fired and black balled.

And taking it upon ourselves to limit their schedules when they'd probably rather be there doing the shit, won't help. It's like with my father. The guy loves to paint houses. He'll work 14-hour days, because he's happy painting. But if you tell him to take a break, it completely ruins his psyche and his happiness.

Does your father suffer regular concussions whilst painting?

People who love doing what they do, don't want to be restricted, and I'm sure many of these guys don't want to be restricted.

I'm sure they'd also love to not be crippled and brain damaged at 55.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

Does your father suffer regular concussions whilst painting?

No, but he's had a back injury which he constantly suffers from and can't walk or even roll out of bed from the pain after working those hours. But doing that work brings him peace of mind and happiness, and he's actually able to move to do it.

My grandfather almost killed himself doing treework. He fell 75 feet out of a tree and shattered his leg and was told he wouldn't walk again, and 3 months later he cut his cast off and walked down the hallway to his truck and went back to work because that's what he loved and what made him happy and he did it up until his body wouldn't let him move anymore.

 

[monkeystyle]

Do you think if you keep saying it enough times it becomes true? No one is FORCING them to do anything.

At my work because I deal with heavy beer kegs I am forced to wear steel toed boots. The guys in the kitchen have to wear non-slip shoes. Why because it's safe. And if I do injure myself on the job, say my back if I lifted wrong they're not going to let me work until I'm healed. Are they telling me what to do? Yes they are. Is it reasonable, yes it is. Why? Because otherwise unscrupulous employers would be allowed to constantly take advantage of their employees.

No where in any of that did it say anything CLOSE to "Vince told me to wrestle injured or I was fired. Nowhere does it say or imply that "I had to wrestle or I knew I was fired". And even if....IF the latter is true, if they WERE to be fired, they can make the choice to lose.

Let's take Kurt Angle and WrestleMania 19. Should Kurt have been in the ring? No fucking way. Sure maybe he said he wanted to but Vince should be protecting his business. What would've happened if Angle died in the middle of the ring during the main event? Nothing but negative press and bad business. It makes no sense.

They dont have a right to work anywhere, and if someone was going to "make you" wrestle hurt, or play hurt, why WOULD you do it unless you loved to do it?

Because you have a family to support etc. Seems logical to me.

"Well I'll lose my spot". If youre dumb enough to think that and ACT upon that bullshit FAULTY logic, you deserve what happens to you.

Except unless you've been in wrestling as long as guys like HHH and Undertaker have it's entirely true. Taz said himself about ECW if he took time off he would lose his spot and the pay cheque he had worked so hard for.

Again if I get hurt and can't work they aren't going to strip me of my manager's position and my salary.

Its a CHOICE. No one has a gun to CM Punks head and is telling him to work injured. No one told HHH to finish the match when he tore his quad both times. No one told Mick Foley to fly OFF THE TOP OF A CELL and keep going. THEY do it. This bullshit of them needing to be shepherded makes me want to puke.

What makes me want to be violently ill is your support of a blatantly corrupt system with no regulations or laws governing it like every single other goddamned sporting exhibition.

 

[monkeystyle]

No, but he's had a back injury which he constantly suffers from and can't walk or even roll out of bed from the pain after working those hours. But doing that work brings him peace of mind and happiness, and he's actually able to move to do it.

My grandfather almost killed himself doing treework. He fell 75 feet out of a tree and shattered his leg and was told he wouldn't walk again, and 3 months later he cut his cast off and walked down the hallway to his truck and went back to work because that's what he loved and what made him happy and he did it up until his body wouldn't let him move anymore.

It's unfortunate that they suffered through those things but neither of them are going to die from it. Your father will live with the back pain but painting for another day with that won't kill him.

A wrestler who has sustained a concussion and continues to recieve them can die from his injuries, easily.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

^When I say back injury, it's the spine. One wrong stretch could theoretically leave him paralyzed.

Again, these guys do this shit out of love, not out of fear of losing that job. There are other places in wrestling for them to go if Vince won't let them remain in the company for taking their own time off.

 

[Kaedon]

At my work because I deal with heavy beer kegs I am forced to wear steel toed boots.

And if you dont want to, you can CHOOSE to leave.

The guys in the kitchen have to wear non-slip shoes.

And if they dont want to, they can CHOOSE to leave.

Why because it's safe.

Because thats how they choose to run their business. And for the record, I worked at a freight company where you were "required" to wear steel toed shoes. They never once inspected us to make sure, they just told us we had to. Some did, some didnt.

And if I do injure myself on the job, say my back if I lifted wrong they're not going to let me work until I'm healed.

And if youre gone for a long enough time, they can fire you as well. But you should be protected from those heavy kegs. Lets make a law saying they have to be lighter. So what if it costs more to ship, as long as the workers are safe, thats all that matters. Wait a minute, you shouldnt have to lift them anyway, lets make a law saying your bosses HAVE TO get you a forklift or some kind of mechanical assistance because YOU, the worker, are all that matters.

Or hell, lets write laws that say no boss can ever fire any worker. I mean the only reason bosses REALLY fire workers is out of greed or personal vengeance. These people should NOT be allowed to run their businesses the way THEY see fit, they should do it the way OTHER PEOPLE tell them to do it.

Let's take Kurt Angle and WrestleMania 19. Should Kurt have been in the ring? No fucking way. Sure maybe he said he wanted to but Vince should be protecting his business. What would've happened if Angle died in the middle of the ring during the main event? Nothing but negative press and bad business. It makes no sense.

But he didnt die. In fact the only MAJOR thing that went wrong was Brock nearly killing himself because Vince put a gun to his head before the match and said I WANT YOU TO GET UP THERE AND DO A SHOOTING STAR PRESS AND ALMOST SNAP YOUR NECK IN TWO. Oh wait...

Because you have a family to support etc. Seems logical to me.

So all wrestlers can do is wrestle? They have no other choice? What the fuck ever, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Except unless you've been in wrestling as long as guys like HHH and Undertaker have it's entirely true. Taz said himself about ECW if he took time off he would lose his spot and the pay cheque he had worked so hard for.

Then you GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. Say you are "forced" to work injured and then you end up DEAD. How well can you support your family then? That is asinine logic.

Again if I get hurt and can't work they aren't going to strip me of my manager's position and my salary.

They can if you are gone for long enough or if they can find another reason to fire you.

What makes me want to be violently ill is your support of a blatantly corrupt system with no regulations or laws governing it like every single other goddamned sporting exhibition.

Yeah, we need MORE government intervention. God knows it worked with steroids in baseball. Oh wait. Well it worked with steroids in football...oh wait. Well no one is dying on the ice in hockey. Wait, nope that happened recently too.

And no one forces these athletes to do that shit. If you dont want to take the risk of getting dropped on your fucking head in football FIND ANOTHER GOD DAMN JOB. I am so fucking tired of this coddle everyone bullshit. If wrestlers and athletes WANT to work and perform injured, they should be able to because its none of our fod damn business WHAT they choose to do, provided they arent driving a bus or whatever. If two CONSENTING ADULTS decide to work injured, and they end up getting hurt or whatever, thats their fault.

 

[monkeystyle]

You can disagree with me all you like. I fail to see how you can argue with the wrestlers who are saying the same things that I am.

You say I have no credibility, whatever? Fine, these guys do. They're your precious wrestlers who say something needs to be done.

Seems straight forward to me. You can argue I have no place telling them what to do but you can't argue with the wrestlers themselves.

 

[monkeystyle]

Also if you like I can keep pulling quotes of wrestlers who say the business needs to be badly changed.

Or will you argue with them too because you know better than the guys who actually work in the business?

 

[Kaedon]

You havent pulled a quote to convince anyone of anything. A guy said he worked with a concussion. When has anyone ever said "I was forced to work hurt" or "Vince made me go out and work with a broken neck"? If I heard that, Id totally be willing to listen, but short of that, its all bullshit. There is no getting around the FACT, and I know you like that word, FACT that unless these guys have a gun to their head, they arent "forced" to do shit. If I have a broken leg and my boss tells me to work or get fired, Id tell him/her to go FUCK THEMSELVES because if I get hurt worse, I wont be able to provide for my family anyway. Therefore no one is FORCED. Now go take your bleeding heart and take it to the sweat shops overseas or to hookers who get beat on daily where, you know, people ARE actually forced to do shit they dont want to do.